Call of Duty: Black Ops - Multiplayer Gameplay Footage

[[SoE]_Zaitsev]

Activision just cares about their own ass making money.

But Valve cares about their customers AND money (Like you said, all companies want money, it's obvious).

I've read that VAC banned around 10000 playerso n MW2 by accident, Valve allowed every single one who was effected by the ban a free copy of L4D2. And we all know L4D2 isn't that old yet. Awesome service tbh.

[[SoE]_Zaitsev]

Probably nothing. But they could also simply give up a much older game.

[Soviet]

It continuously amazes me how whenever Activision does something, the best intentions are assumed. Yet, when Valve does anything it is immediately questioned and analyzed for even a semblance of a hole in their decision that makes them look bad. Are you guys really that fucking stupid or do you just have no idea what goes on in the industry and how these companies are run?

[Soviet]

Point out and give evidence of one instance where they have even implied they would do anything of that nature.

Also, I never said they were saints. I simply said that Activision was the epitome of fucking evil and Valve was the best out there. That doesn't make Valve saints, it just makes them better than all the other trashy companies in the market right now.

[[SoE]_Zaitsev]

But it's not their game so I don't see the problem. Valve is still probably the #1 company for PC gamers who give a shit, followed by Blizzard but they started selling lots of crap in-game items for real money.

[Rezil]

*Looks at topic title*

*Looks at last two pages*



Seriously, again guys? :S

[F |Madness| U]

That^

[Soviet]

Point out and give evidence of one instance where they have even implied they would do anything of that nature.

They sell MW2 and DLC for it.

By that logic, if I was against cigarettes (which I am), then I would refuse to make any purchases at any store that sells them in any capacity. So, let's say I go to the supermarket to get some bread, on the way to the checkout I notice some cigarettes on a display. Naturally, I can no longer purchase bread at that store, so I leave without my purchase. After then going to 8 other stores I realize it is absolutely impossible to find bread at a place that doesn't also sell cigarettes. I then stop to realize how flawed my logic is, slap myself, and go buy bread at the first store.

[Soviet]

Actually, since MW2 was arguably the biggest release ever, if they had not offered it on Steam they would have lost a ton of immediate sales for the product, as well as general popularity on their platform. Since people need Steam to play it, they will most likely end up impulse buying other games in the future.

Regardless that entire point is idiotic. Valve has the most open, supportive, extensive, complex, and deep mod community of any company in the world. They have hired mod teams many times, they actually publish mod content into their official games, and they constantly publicly state support for various pieces of modded content. They also provide dedicated servers free of charge for a number of their games. Selling one of the most popular FPS's of all time to ensure they keep their customer base definitely does not outweigh that.

[Drofder2004]

It continuously amazes me how whenever Activision does something, the best intentions are assumed.

I would love to know where I ever show support for Activision?

Yet, when Valve does anything it is immediately questioned and analyzed for even a semblance of a hole in their decision that makes them look bad. Are you guys really that fucking stupid or do you just have no idea what goes on in the industry and how these companies are run?

The topic is Steam and Valve, if you want I can start criticising every other business minded oppurtunists in the gaming industry and show to you how greed drives them as well.

you seem to misunderstand the fact that I see greed as a BAD thing, when in reality greed is a natural human urge. We all want more, my boss wants more income, I want a bigger pay salary, yet my customers want lower prices.
And the same works in reverse, gaming companies wants more money, yet I will always want the games cheaper.

If Valve were as great as you say they are for the modding community, why are they not publishing the games and only taking costs to cover the distribution instead of profiting off the games they sell?
The answer is obvious, Valve are not a charity, the money, effort, support and all the stuff they do for the gaming world is a marketting venture. For every customer like you they have on their side, the more money they make from sales.

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Facts are that no matter how much of a great company Valve are, they do not have personal morals, they are businees minded. They willingly support the sale of products that WE as a community ave been saying is ruining the PC gaming, be it DLC or the sale of game such as MW2.
Despite this fact, I think no less of Steam/Valve as, I continue to recognise them as a business and not as my friend.

And your mention of hiring mod teams is a good example of where you and me see things differently.
I see the move as a business venture. Investment and profit. Valve invest, game doubles in price, developers make money through sales, Valve makes money through sales commission. Consumer although spends more, gets a much more developed game with more support.
Triple win scenario, but for this to all happen, we must pay more.

This discussion/argument/whatever is going nowhere, so I will just summarise my opinions and feel free to comment as you like to them.

- DLC is badbut is also the future
- Steam will eventually sell DLC for Valve games
- I am not stupid, I just see things on wider scale than what others may.

I may not work in the gaming industry but that does not mean I have no idea of how business as a general.
AMy I am under-qualified to make these assessments, but if you can provide a more qualified person, then I will step down and accept their views.

[Soviet]

You're perfectly qualified to make generalizations, which is exactly what you are doing. If you think I don't understand the fundamentals of business feel free to check back on the 10+ MW2 arguments that I was leading concerning Activsion's immoral business practices about a year ago. There is a big difference between making money to keep your company going and making money to exploit the consumer. It isn't a hard line to define, and it's a line that it's clear Valve does not cross, especially in the development side of things.

Just because a company is making money you automatically assume it is solely for the purpose of personal gain, not to have further capital to invest in their company's new ideas. The company model you describe is a completely marketing driven company (which it's pretty fucking obvious Valve isn't). Here, let me explain so I don't have to later. Companies in these industries have two different parts, the marketing and the development. The development are the guys that always want more time to finish something, they always have another feature they want to add or another bug to fix. They will never really be done with project. They care about their salary, but they also care heavily about the game they've invested many hundreds of hours in. On the opposite end, the marketing guys don't give a shit about the quality of a game. They care about how it is portrayed on the market and in turn how that will affect sales. All they care about is releasing it as quickly as possible without it being a total disaster.

These two forces balance each other out, and you have companies that do so to varying degrees. Activision is an excellent example of a pure marketing company, a company that doesn't give a fuck about the quality of their product and instead spends most of their development time finding shortcuts and ways to exploit the consumer. Valve is an excellent example of a development company. Valve has delayed games for years (HL2 delayed 2-3 years, Ep1 delayed 6 months, Ep2 delayed a year, Ep3 delayed 2 years and counting, Portal 2 has had a 6 month delay so far) simply because they didn't think it had all the features it should.

Now yes, Steam naturally acts a bit more like the marketing end of things, probably because it is based around marketing. It isn't a game, the development team is developing software meant to market, sell, and connect their customers together. No shit it will be about money, that is what the software is about. The game development company, however, what Valve primarily is, is very heavily development based and if anything it has too small of a marketing department. Also, take a look at where Valve is expanding its numbers, it definitely isn't in the marketing department. They're using that money from Steam and pumping it back into the development branch to make it even better than before.

So yes, I'm a fanboy because Valve is a development based company in a world full of marketing based companies. Crazy how that works, I appreciate the company that buys into the good aspects of human nature instead of settling for the easy, selfish ones.

[Rezil]

Holy shit, an articulate flame war. I can't believe what I'm seeing!

The topic is Steam and Valve

*Looks at topic title*



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Hey guys I think OB will be pretty shitty!

[Pedsdude]

Hey guys I think OB will be pretty shitty!

BO!

[Hoogie]

That picture is so win

[Drofder2004]

...

Most of what you say Itoally agree, with but the two seperate sectors I would never consider seperate, they are not linked but they are part of a cycle.

Developers use money on ideas, marketing make money from the idea.
The profits after all payouts then reinvested. -> There are no profits on this cycle
Developers use the reinvested money on further ideas, this again is sold.
A portion of the profits is then reinvested -> Profit is now showing.

This continues to happen to show larger and larger sums of profit.

This is a general idea of an expanding business, obviously a company can reinvest the same amount of money and continually get the same return of profit and be happy, but Valve are not one of these companies. They are a company who is constantly growing.

Ofcourse, there are also companies like Activision who do not reinvest as large a percentage of profits into the industry.

But beyond this my argument is not about Valve as a company, it is the sale of DLC on a Valve game.
I think it will happen, not because Valve are trying to exploit the gaming industry, but because they are trying to keep the profit loss margins increasing.

Also, just to cover my background, I do not do this simply from stuff on the web, I have n active role in a small company which gives me the oppurtunity to do the low grade activities and the top grade managerial activities.
I make a lot of decisions on what, how and where to spend money, with the intention of getting back different more profits. The company I work in is approximately 50% return business. So half our income is based on keeping customers happy. You cannot do this by sitting back on your profits and watching the world revolve.

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Related but just a different direction.
Just my view on DLC.
Example: Map-pack [5 maps]
Each map has taken 5 months to developer, with 2 members of staff working on each map for 40 hours a week.
Lets say they get £10 an hour. Then double it all for distribution/beta.

= ~£200,000

Now, let say only 70,000 (xfire stat for daily players on CoD4).
£200,000 / 70,000
= ~£3

I would pay £3 for 5 maps.
I will not pay £11 though...