Relegation :)

[Pedsdude]

U guys should look at it the other way around... Football players werent earning a lot of money in the past and they never really cared, but payment went up when more ppl wanted to invest more money in football, which isnt the footballers fault. I think they receive much more then they earn, but thats not their fault... It is their fault if they earn that money and start complaining about workload and stuff..

Indeed, it's all demand and supply. We're willing to pay ticket prices etc. and the club is willing the pay the wages.

So which of those 3 teams do you support?

Well, according to your definitions, none of them.... but then according to your definitions, a high percentage of the fans are not supporters. I follow all of them, but because I own a shirt for Man U, I must be a supporter...

So back to my original comment - you're not a 'proper fan', therefore the jokes you posted are meaningless to me. If you did support a team, you would have said so properly from the start, but it turns out (as expected) that you're more of a casual 'supporter' (for want of a better word).

£40 maximum for a lifetime is hardly going to cause you to file for bankruptcy.

If it isn't that much money, why don't they just give them away?

Take this as a scenario. Man 'A' has no money. He has no means to support his club. He cannot get a shirt, or any memorabilia. He is unable to watch any match, he cannot listen to a radio, his only method of knowing scores is through asking other people. Man 'B' however, can afford all these luxuries, he has the shirt, the quilt cover and pillow cases to match. He has a season ticket, he travels abroad to see the away matches, he follows them everywhere.

Who is the bigger supporter, who has more pride and who is the 'proper' fan?

The scenario may be highly unlikely but the message is quite clear in my view. Material and money makes you no more of a fan than anyone else. Doing whatever you can by your own means is what (imo) defines a proper fan.

It's not that much money for one person to pay once in their life. For the club, it's a lot of money when you aggregate all the people buying them. With players' wages going up so much, the more revenue they can raise, the better.

As for the man with no money scenario, that can't be taken seriously in this argument because it's clearly a ridiculous extreme. My original comments were comparing me and you. You're not so poor that you can't afford TV, clothes, tickets etc. I'm not comparing myself to someone who is poverty-stricken, and so that argument is irrelevant. I wouldn't be able to compare because there's no way of knowing exactly in each person's head how much the club's success means to them. For those who are able to make the effort, however, such as people who have enough money to buy a shirt, watch matches on TV, buy tickets to games etc., there's a more clear distinction present.

[Soviet]

I'm sorry, but I still fail to see how extreme emotional involvement is relevant to being able to logically assess the ability of a team.

Has it occured to you that as a non-fan you will be negatively biased in this discussion? This argument isn't simply about the ability of a team, in fact, the technical ability of the Newcastle players is high enough for us to easily remain in the Premier League, they just don't work well enough as a team at times. At the end of the day, though, we've been relegated and that's the end of it. This argument with Drofder has sparked as a result of "coming from you it means absolutely nothing", which is more a criticism of the fact that he's not a 'proper' fan and so the jokes he posted don't mean much to me.

How well they work together as a team is in fact the ability of a team

Honestly, I don't get why people are even fans of any sport. I follow basketball similarly to how Drofder follows football because I realized after being a fan of the Phoenix Suns, all being a fan does is waste money and make you depressed. The positives when they win are always short lived as you quickly begin worrying about the next match. I'd much rather be able to sit back and enjoy a game and the good things about it instead of being angry every time the enemy team scores.

Also, I am not negatively biased. No bias at all can come from logic. I am looking at the current situation logically, whereas you are looking at it emotionally. Therefore, if anyone is biased in the discussion, it is you.

[Drofder2004]

So back to my original comment - you're not a 'proper fan'.

Only according to your own opinion/definitions. I consider myself a casual fan of football and a proper fan of Man U.

With players' wages going up so much, the more revenue they can raise, the better.

no, the worse it gets. Why we choose to fund such absurd wages and accept our clubs spending millions on one single player. think of how much could've been done with some of these record breaking deals. I can still remember when Shearer was signed for a record £15 million. We are now over triple that, and we simply accept that this is what they are worth?

I wouldn't be able to compare because there's no way of knowing exactly in each person's head how much the club's success means to them.

So how exactly are you unable to answer the scenario? You say you cannot judge without knowing, yet you say the scenario is too extreme.

Here's another scenario...
Man 'A' has some money. He has enough to pay his way in life, taxes, food and living, and stays debt free.
He is unable to watch Sky/Setanta, he doesn't own a radio, no merchandise, he just gets his updates on normal TV news.
Man 'B' is the same in the last scenario.

Same questions...

[Pedsdude]

Also, I am not negatively biased. No bias at all can come from logic. I am looking at the current situation logically, whereas you are looking at it emotionally. Therefore, if anyone is biased in the discussion, it is you.

The whole discussion has been based on me not viewing Drofder as what I see to be a 'proper fan', so it is a partially emotional argument in terms of how emotionally attached one is to a team. You can't make conclusive statements about that based on 'logic'. It's down to how different individuals compare.

So back to my original comment - you're not a 'proper fan'.

Only according to your own opinion/definitions. I consider myself a casual fan of football and a proper fan of Man U.

The fact of the matter is that you're nowhere near as much of a fan of Man U as I am of Newcastle, and you know it

With players' wages going up so much, the more revenue they can raise, the better.

no, the worse it gets. Why we choose to fund such absurd wages and accept our clubs spending millions on one single player. think of how much could've been done with some of these record breaking deals. I can still remember when Shearer was signed for a record £15 million. We are now over triple that, and we simply accept that this is what they are worth?

The better for the club, not for me. That was obvious. I'm not gonna be able to do anything, it's a free market and so demand/supply will decide it. Most people have their limits in terms of how much they're willing to pay for tickets/merchandise, so at some point they won't be able to increase the wages of players through extra money taken in from fans. A lot of the money nowadays is from sponsorships and private owners coming in and buying players for long term investments in the club / personal amusement.

I wouldn't be able to compare because there's no way of knowing exactly in each person's head how much the club's success means to them.

So how exactly are you unable to answer the scenario? You say you cannot judge without knowing, yet you say the scenario is too extreme.

Here's another scenario...
Man 'A' has some money. He has enough to pay his way in life, taxes, food and living, and stays debt free.
He is unable to watch Sky/Setanta, he doesn't own a radio, no merchandise, he just gets his updates on normal TV news.
Man 'B' is the same in the last scenario.

Same questions...

[/quote]
A lot of the comparison is to do with character. Notwithstanding that some people will admit to be less of a fan than others, a lot of the time you can make educated guesses at who's less of a fan. Man A could go to the pub to watch some of his team's matches, he could buy a radio (minimal cost). Obviously part of the judgement on whether or not one person is a bigger fan than another is in their mind as to how important they deem the club's success personally to them. Assuming they both like the club the same amount, I would say Man B is a bigger fan. Man A could make the effort if he choses, but he doesn't. At least Man B helps to support the team through attendance, showing his colours and keeping completely up-to-date with the team. Man A seems lazier and less interested - there are many things he could do which he simply doesn't do.

[Drofder2004]

The fact of the matter is that you're nowhere near as much of a fan of Man U as I am of Newcastle, and you know it

Do I? You more than likely are a more passionate fan, however you're not more of a 'proper' fan than me.

A lot of the money nowadays is from sponsorships and private owners coming in and buying players for long term investments in the club / personal amusement.

Goes back to my point. Why should I spend money on shirts then?

I think we are gonna have to 'agree to disagree' because I know I am not going to convince you and I know that your representation of fans/supporters is far different to my, and all of this is opinionated and not factual so will go nowhere slowly...

[Soviet]

Cool, so can I get a straight answer now of why it is so important for you guys to be fans of something?

[Pedsdude]

I think we are gonna have to 'agree to disagree' because I know I am not going to convince you and I know that your representation of fans/supporters is far different to my, and all of this is opinionated and not factual so will go nowhere slowly...

Indeed, I knew it'd get to this stage eventually

Cool, so can I get a straight answer now of why it is so important for you guys to be fans of something?

It makes watching sport more entertaining if you have a personal attachment / preference for one team. It also makes it more enjoyable when your team wins. Sure, you feel bad when your team loses, but it's worth it for the high points

The Sky bet adverts which say "It matters more when there's money on it" is somewhat relevant here - it matters more when you support a team!

[[SoE]_Zaitsev]

I didn't read most of this argument, but i did read this:

I have to say - it is my belief that paying stupid money for match tickets + shirts is simply chucking money at over paid cocks so they can drive around in Ferrari's.

People who work 100x harder than athletes get paid 100x less...

Harder is the wrong word. Being pro at your sports takes a hell of a big chunk out of you.

I know what you mean though since I agree aswell. People work, earn less money, but you can't miss them. People who play football as a hobby, eventually get discovered and earn shitloads of money and by doing that they help nobody apart of themselves. Yeh, life like this is unfair. But that's how it is.

[Drofder2004]

I think we are gonna have to 'agree to disagree' because I know I am not going to convince you and I know that your representation of fans/supporters is far different to my, and all of this is opinionated and not factual so will go nowhere slowly...

Indeed, I knew it'd get to this stage eventually

Unstoppable force paradox?

Cool, so can I get a straight answer now of why it is so important for you guys to be fans of something?

As I said, I watch many games, doesn't really matter who is playing, when you are watching to see a good game of football, but, as said, everything becomes somewhat more exciting when you are supporting someone.

[Soviet]

Okay, I find it more enjoyable to watch games solely for seeing the technical skill of both teams, instead of hating one team whenever they pull off something amazing, but then again I watch basketball for the most part. I've only ever watched football very casually. Perhaps soccer is different in way, I could see how it might be with the very low scores and stuff.

[Drofder2004]

The only thing beaten at home more than Newcastle United is Baby P.

Let us end on a high...

[Pedsdude]

Okay, I find it more enjoyable to watch games solely for seeing the technical skill of both teams, instead of hating one team whenever they pull off something amazing, but then again I watch basketball for the most part. I've only ever watched football very casually. Perhaps soccer is different in way, I could see how it might be with the very low scores and stuff.

It's less about hating the other team for doing something good and more about enjoying your team doing something good. Whenever Newcastle concede an excellent goal, yes I do hate the other team for having scored, but I admire the skill involved etc.

It's human instincts really, the competitive nature of things and being in what you could (very!) loosely call tribes.

The only thing beaten at home more than Newcastle United is Baby P.

Let us end on a high...

West Brom, Hull, Sunderland, Portsmouth and West Ham all lost more home games than Newcastle this season