Advanced Strafe Jump Tutorial

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Re: Advanced Strafe Jump Tutorial

Post by Infinite » February 10th, 2010, 12:23 am

Drofder2004 wrote:Were these results tested by calculating player origins and distance jumped, or by old fashioned scrupulous testing on a gap range?

A mod that is determined by origins, and is affected by fps, latency and timing is a very poor experiment.
The player origins can be slightly off, even when the player is only slightly turned to its side, fps can cause a slight increase in jump details and also server server fps can affect timings. Also, the mod would need to take into consideration a small amount of player slide, as well as the fact it is only timed to the nearest 0.05 seconds.

And finally, the big problem with scripts: who is too say script A is not more accurate than script B?
If the standard jump script is timed slightly wrong, and the newer script is timed to perfection, we have a potential false evidence.

Sorry, but this HAS to be tested by human hands, no script will ever be accurate enough.
This was done with a mod (therefore your first option), and multiple tests were done. All were offline and with the same script and the same position was loaded (including angles and everything). The range of which a player went without gun switching was 312-318 units, and the range with gun switching was 310-321 (and 321 was performed multiple times) under the same conditions. More tests can and will be run, but these are preliminary results. We still need to duplicate them under a preferably more controlled environment along with hundreds of runs being done. I fail to see how a script can be less accurate than a human in this case because humans have psychological issues to face as they do this along with the "luck" factor, whereas a script can reproduce VERY similar results without adding in a psychological statement such as "omg, I got 310 quicker than usual with the gun switch!", which would be an illogical inference that the gun switch makes you go farther, or do better.

Also, what do you mean by Script A compared to Script B? These results were all performed with the same script (excluding the gun switch added in, which may be what you mean).
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Re: Advanced Strafe Jump Tutorial

Post by [SoE]_Zaitsev » February 10th, 2010, 12:28 am

And now do it without scripting ;)
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Re: Advanced Strafe Jump Tutorial

Post by Infinite » February 10th, 2010, 1:03 am

KillerSam wrote:Drofder is saying that by scripting in a weapon change, you are changing the jump script - and now 2 things are being changed, the weapon and the script.
That is what I figured that he meant, but that's the only variable that is changing (the gun switch). Isn't that the whole point of an experiment?
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Re: Advanced Strafe Jump Tutorial

Post by Drofder2004 » February 10th, 2010, 1:07 am

Infinite wrote:Also, what do you mean by Script A compared to Script B? These results were all performed with the same script (excluding the gun switch added in, which may be what you mean).
By simply adding a weapon switch, you have modified a script. This affects timing, as each individual section is script is completed on item by item basis, the game does not read the whole script and then perform the action.

Humans have a luck factor as you said, which actually works in favour of testing in this scenario.
If you perform a hard jump 100 times and succeed once, and then try the exact same jump and succeed ten times with the weapon change, then it would be logical (although not scientific) that it is in fact a better method.
Another factor to consider is how 'humanly' possible is the script? If you can make a script to rotate a players turning speed to a rapid motion which would be near impossible to match with a mouse, that doesn't make it a better technique (if you get where I am going).

May we look at the scripts and mod coding being used, it would at least provide a better insight into how accurate we are talking with the mod.

--------

Reason for scepticism.

Weapon files use a speed modifier: moveSpeedScale
The modifiers work on a percent scale, if you are holding no weapon, you are surely travelling at "100%" speed. If you change to a 100% weapon, you should neither gain or lose speed. No weapon to my knowledge has higher than 1.0.

[Although, after consulting the weapon files, the concussion/flash grenade does have a movespeedscale of 1.2. (frag is 1). Only issue is that I do not believe the game ever detects you of holding either as a weapon.]
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Re: Advanced Strafe Jump Tutorial

Post by Infinite » February 10th, 2010, 2:59 am

In response to the post above (since I do not want to quote that wall of text :lol:): Upon further discussion with Dan, he has said that he has been changing the weapon before the script was used, therefore the script was not modified in any way. This may skew results as the weapon change was not done at the same time, but w.e . I understand your point about how a script is read, but fail to see how this affects the result seeing as adding in the gun switch shouldn't change how the rest of script performs since it should be put in place before the actual strafing part of the script runs.

As for your view on "luck": it seems that you completely ignored my psychological (I always thought it was spelled psycological? :cry:) comment. I'll use your scenario: If a person makes a hard jump once out of 100 tries without a good luck charm, then obtains a good luck charm and makes the jump 50 times out of a 100 tries, does that make good luck charms work? No, but it may make the person think that it will work, which gives them confidence and potentially a better "strafer" whenever they have this good luck charm. I believe that the same can apply to this if people attempt to do it, unless someone can make 319 with 125 fps (because I believe that 318 is the farthest recorded jump from the strafe bot, also known as "steave", with 125 fps) with the gun switch. The farthest recorded jump with human hands is 316 so far, and if someone made 317 with the gun switch on demo, it wouldn't be valid proof that the gun switch actually increases speed.

I somewhat get where you are going with the "humanly possible" bit, and it actually nulls my argument on steave making 318, but I believe that steave appears to do the same strafe as regular players. If Dan is willing to release steave, then you can see for yourself, but for now, the closest I can give you is the script which I have just released in one of my previous posts. That's basically how steave looks and performs when he strafes, except he goes farther.

Your reason for skepticism is the same as I have. In fact, I was so sure that weapon changes wouldn't work, that right before Dan tried it, I said "[16:08] Infinite: I'm 100% certain that it doesn't help".
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Re: Advanced Strafe Jump Tutorial

Post by WorldDomoNation » February 10th, 2010, 4:01 am

omg zait if you don't stop bitching about using scripts...

and great news about this! i told you guys it works! 8)
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Re: Advanced Strafe Jump Tutorial

Post by [SoE]_Zaitsev » February 10th, 2010, 10:10 am

If I don't stop bitching about scripts, what's going to happen then ?

Should I go protect my face from your girly bitch slaps ?

Don't make stupid threats.

And I got all rights to complain about scripts, since it's my opinion, and I don't like the way it works because if everybody uses it, you can't identify the good jumpers anymore.

You don't want to know how many dodgy gap records we've gone through in the past to identify cheaters who're using a scirpt or a slight change in gravity (Although we can spot gravity changes now).
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Re: Advanced Strafe Jump Tutorial

Post by Infinite » February 10th, 2010, 1:56 pm

WorldDomoNation wrote:omg zait if you don't stop bitching about using scripts...

and great news about this! i told you guys it works! 8)
:!:
Hold up, we never verified that it actually worked. A quick test was run and the increase was only 3 units (which may seem like a lot, but I believe 1 unit = 1 inch as compared to real life, as I've read somewhere :S). If the increase is from 318-321, that is nearly a 1% increase in distance (1 - 318/321) , that would make this method only worth it in gap training really.
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Re: Advanced Strafe Jump Tutorial

Post by [SoE]_Zaitsev » February 10th, 2010, 4:03 pm

If you can't strafe the distance you RPG strafe the distance. But what if there are already 2 RPGs used ? Only then it comes in handy.

Still, if it allows people to strafe further then so be it.
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Re: Advanced Strafe Jump Tutorial

Post by Lancast » February 10th, 2010, 7:36 pm

Interesting discussion going here, won't join the scripting discussion as I don't know much about that.
One thing sounded interesting, what WorldDomoNation said, gun switching, I'll try it myself.
One thing sounded annoying.
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aicaramba wrote:I cant believe so many people use/want the script.. Isnt jumping about learning how to do jumps/strafejumping by yourself?
AI i think I'm probably more capable than most people to do the strike strafe. I use the script just as #1 is quicker and #2 guaranteed to make it. In a game (match) its better to be 100% than 99%.
I fully agree with aicaramba, but I couldn't care less whenever you use that script or not, but the thing is, why would you use some 'perfect strafe script' for something like the strike strafe? That's easy as hell, I'll do it first try anytime, what's the gap there, something like 260 or less...It's dead easy I can't believe you guys use a script for it, it would take you longer to get into the right position on a ranked than just do it urself anyway...

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Re: Advanced Strafe Jump Tutorial

Post by Drofder2004 » February 10th, 2010, 8:27 pm

Ignoring all posts above and just replying to infinite... :)

I didn't realise the script was actually kept under wraps, I am not exactly part of the jumping scene so much any more, but figured the script was common knowledge, obviously if the script is kept secret then I have no problems not being told it, as I am 100% with Zait on this, scripts ruin the experience (but ignore that, it has no relevance to current discussion :)). I did not see a script you released for example, was it in this thread?

My theory on luck is purely logic based, luck cannot be calculated and therefore it is theoretically possible for a person to jump 50/100 times and fail 1000 more times after, but if the probability is they can only make it once in 100 tries, then the chance of them completing that jump 5 times in 100 is slim. Of course, this would not be a valid proof of either success or failure, but it would give a small impression of the human possibility for the technique, which too me is more important.

---
In relation to the script:
If you place your character at exactly (0,0,0) on the map and use the script, how precise is the landing point?
Will the character land at (319,0,0) every time, or is there a small room for error?
You say the "best" length of jump using the script is 319, but if the script is automated, then the jump distance should always be the same, if not, this script will always have a flaw.

Are we testing this on solid ground or on gaps?
It may be worth recording jump distance on a flat surface, or by changing the "jump_stepsize" (I think is the dvar?) to 0, this should stop the character from being propped up on to the platform when landing the small units short, hopefully reducing the small amount of lag/fps variables.
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Re: Advanced Strafe Jump Tutorial

Post by Infinite » February 11th, 2010, 2:07 am

I'm not 100% sure about how it's being tested but from what I understand, Dan made some solid ground and you can strafe off of it and fall through air. When you hit a trigger, which is placed 18 units below the ground since the "jump_stepSize" is 18 units (meaning that you can hit a landing position 18 units above you and your position will be corrected onto the position), a thread in a mod records how far you are from the edge of the platform which you jumped off (or how far you are in a certain direction from where you started right before you jumped) and displays that number as distance in units.

I said the highest recorded strafe so far (with steave and without gun switching) was 318 units with 125 fps. The script varies in the distance, but considering the range in which it gets is almost always higher than 310 units (which is a fairly hard strafe to perform by itself), it is a fairly accurate script. So far, Dan has only gotten up to 318 units without gun switching and has gotten up to 321 units with gun switching (and multiple times as well). I understand that this will always have a flaw since it doesn't go the same distance everytime, but that's why multiple tests are done :S.

I just realized that I left this page up for a few hours and never posted it, so I cba to read through all of this again and find out what I put in it and what I didn't, but that's what I got so far ><.
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Re: Advanced Strafe Jump Tutorial

Post by Drofder2004 » February 11th, 2010, 2:29 am

Honestly, I would need to see the results in action, so will let you finish testing.
As I have no control or insight into exactly how it is being tested, I really cannot comment on how fair the test honestly is.

My concern is (if I recall ancient testing correctly) that if you run a script checking your current weapon, there is no stage at which you are holding no weapon. The engine always records a weapon in possession (unless they are removed), when you are cooking a nade, you still hold a weapon, while changing, you still hold a weapon. The change in weapon is purely an animation, and animations are in no part connected to speed or movement.

Let us know when testing is concluded or if some other theory is devised because at the moment, there is nothing really to look at, I still haven't even seen an example of how this change of weapon is even considered to be used.
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Re: Advanced Strafe Jump Tutorial

Post by Infinite » February 11th, 2010, 3:55 am

Drofder2004 wrote:Honestly, I would need to see the results in action, so will let you finish testing.
As I have no control or insight into exactly how it is being tested, I really cannot comment on how fair the test honestly is.

My concern is (if I recall ancient testing correctly) that if you run a script checking your current weapon, there is no stage at which you are holding no weapon. The engine always records a weapon in possession (unless they are removed), when you are cooking a nade, you still hold a weapon, while changing, you still hold a weapon. The change in weapon is purely an animation, and animations are in no part connected to speed or movement.

Let us know when testing is concluded or if some other theory is devised because at the moment, there is nothing really to look at, I still haven't even seen an example of how this change of weapon is even considered to be used.
There might be a slight misunderstanding here. By "script" we mean a .cfg file which is executed by using "exec x.cfg" ingame and it normally uses the "seta" command ingame while you can bind a button to "vstr" the different lines.

For example:

Code: Select all

seta strafe1 "cl_yawspeed 100;+sprint;+forward;wait 15;+moveleft;+left;wait 30;cl_yawspeed 300;wait 35;+gostand;-gostand;vstr strafe2"
seta strafe2 "wait 20;cl_yawspeed 50;-left;wait 150;-forward;-sprint;-moveleft;cl_yawspeed 140"
bind x "vstr strafe1"
We aren't talking about something in a mod which would check different elements of the game.
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Re: Advanced Strafe Jump Tutorial

Post by KoBron83 » February 11th, 2010, 5:37 am

So when exactly do you have to switch weapons while you are performing the strafe? Do you switch from main gun to pistol or vice versa?

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